The Judge RANTS!
Date: 10/09/10
The Truth
On BBC Radio 4's Today programme yesterday morning, there was an interview with a colleague in the Depratment - who was anonymous for obvious reasons - about what had gone wrong and what is still going wrong in it.
The audio is here at the moment, but I don't know for how long, so here's a transcript. Needless to say, everything she says is absolutely correct.
Presenter: A serving tax officer at HMRC has been speaking to our reporter Andrew Hosken. The officer, who has more than a decade's experience as a tax collector, spoke to us on the grounds that we do not disclose her identity, so we've disguised her voice. So what, in her opinion, is the extent of the crisis facing the Revenue?
Tax Officer: It's massive, it's absolutely huge. HMRC hasn't been fit for purpose for a very long time. It's now at melting point. We don't have the staff we need, we don't have the resources we need, and the computer systems we use are atrocious.
Andrew Hosken: The blame is being put on this new computer system. Now, is that the case, and if so why is that the case?
TO: It is indeed the case, and it's the case because it wasn't written by tax people or anyone who had any idea about tax...
AH: What, the computer software?
TO: The computer software. The initial identifier is in fact the employee number and not the National Insurance number, which is a unique number, so we have all sorts of problems. It doesn't do what it was supposed to do in the first place. We're, I think, on the fourth release now of the update to the software, and it's still not working properly. And because we don't have the staff to check individual cases, all of these mistakes are happening and all of this post is going out to our customers, the taxpayer.
AH: Was this pointed out to the Government at the time?
TO: It's always been pointed out to the Government.
AH: What does it mean in terms of collecting tax?
TO: It means we're not collecting tax, but neither are we repaying tax to people who should have their tax repaid. It means that the country doesn't have the money it needs to run, because we're not resourced properly enough to collect those taxes in. Every department has had cuts. We talk about Debt Management and Banking, who actually go out and collect the money, and they're so short-staffed that when we could see a problem elsewhere, there's nobody to follow up on that.
AH: So how much money do you think is going uncollected as a result of this crisis in the tax office?
TO: There are varying amounts. I think by the Department's own admission it's at least thirty to forty billion, and there is evidence - especially in the Richard Murphy Tax Justice report - which suggest that the figure is much higher, up to three, four times higher than that.
AH: What about the public, in terms of how you interact with the public? There'll be a lot of worried people coming to see you, whether they've paid too much tax or they have to pay tax back.
TO: Well, good luck for them to get in and see us. There's so many Enquiry Centres up and down the country that have had their days reduced, that if they manage to turn up on a day when the Enquiry Centre is actually open, the chance of them getting an appointment to see an advisor is slim to none. What will happen - as much as staff at Revenue & Customs hate it - is they'll be put on the telephone to a Contact Centre where they're understaffed and there's not enough people to answer the phones, or they'll be told to write in, that's exacerbating the problem of the million pieces of post we have on hand already.
AH: A million pieces?
TO: A million pieces of unanswered post at the moment are on the system.
AH: So where do you keep these letters?
TO: All over the country in different offices. Where they squirrel them away I'm not sure, but there are a million pieces of post unanswered at the moment.
AH: So, how long did it used to take to answer a query that came in by post, and how long does it take now?
TO: Well, when I first started with the Department, if we went over seven days we got hauled over the coals, but now we're looking at three months.
AH: If you look at The Independent, for example, the front page: "Errors possible in 23.7 million cases"; "15 000 demands for repayment already sent out in a bid to recover two billion pounds"; "One and a half million people owe an average of £1 400 each"; "An extra £3bn in missed payments identified in addition to £3.8bn already reported". I mean, is this sensationalism?
TO: Not really, no. For those of us who work for HMRC. "Errors possible in 23.7 million cases" - I'm surprised the number's that low. "Fifteen thousand demands for repayment already sent out" - again, surprised it's that low...
AH: ...Forty-four million telephone calls to HMRC went unanswered...
TO: Oh, I can absolutely believe that. Absolutely believe that. They are so under-resourced in the Contact Centres, and the poor people who work in there are working under terrible conditions, they are monitored every second of the day, even so far as if they take more than the five minutes on a toilet break they're asked why.
AH: What about the management in the HMRC? Are they coping with this problem?
TO: Senior management are sticking their heads in the sands over this problem. They seem to think that the next new idea will be the one that solves everything, no matter how many times we tell them it won't.
AH: What is the morale like among the staff in HMRC?
TO: Low. It's lower than I've ever known it since I've been with the Department. People are just desperate to get out. They wonder why they come in to work in the morning. It's not a fun place to work, and you could argue perhaps that it shouldn't be a fun place to work because we do a serious job. It doesn't mean that we have to be miserable doing it, and that's how we are now.
AH: Is there any way out of this crisis in the short term?
TO:In the short term, yes, and in the long term. I would say, resource HMRC properly, staff it properly and we will go out there and we will collect the money we need to run the country.
